Fantasyland

[Copperfields]

I've mentioned in other posts that I've read the recent release about ToutWars, Fantasyland (fantasylandthebook.com/) by Sam Walker, and that I highly recommend it to all CFCLers.

It's a very quick read, and at times is un-put-downable (I think I read it in 3-4 settings, which is rare for me).

I already quoted a couple things in the other thread, but a couple more with CFCL ties...

Over the past few years, we've had a mini-debate raging about the length and pace of the draft, and our resident expert (and ToutWars champ) Jason was one of the main proponents of speeding things up. It seemed to him that we allowed owners too much "think" time during the bidding, and I often wondered whether this was just the "Expert" phenomenon speaking since he was used to drafting in leagues where everyone knows excatly what a player is worth as soon as he's nominated.

In the book, Walker attends the LABR drafts as an observer. He writes:

During the AL draft, I borrowed somebody's stopwatch. The moment Seattle infielder Bret Boone was nominated, I clicked start. If I'd been drafting for real, I'd have had to look up Boone's projections, check the list of remaining players at his position, calculate how much money I'd have left if I bought him, decide if he's a good fit for the current makeup of my team and, if so, how much I was willing to pay for him. When the bidding on Boone ended at $27, I clicked "stop." The whole exercice took seventeen seconds. This isn't Rotisserie baseball. It's Jeopardy!

Hmmm - seventeen seconds vs the 3 minutes we typically average per player. No wonder things seemed slow to Jason...

Once the season gets underway, Jason (defending champ, coming off back-to-back wins) was out of the running pretty quickly. However, he did apparently play into the pennant race, much to the dismay of Rick Fogel, a non-expert in the league:

"But after Fogel ascended slowly into contention ("I could win!" he remembers telling himself), Jason Grey and Lawr Michaels cut a blockbuster deal at the Tout Wars trade deadline that, in his opinion, was an obvious play to keep an outsider from winning. Fogel made a stink about it in the league chatroom. "Collusion" was his term for it; "sour grapes" was Grey's response. By the end of the season, Fogel conceded that the trade wasn't that lopsided, but he's still not over it.

It's interesting, because this trade came just a year after Jason felt he was burned by a lopsided trade in the CFCL, which might have been made in order to keep him from winning.

Walker only really presents Fogel's interpretation of the ToutWars trade, and never mentions the specifics of the players involved, so it's unfair to characterize the trade in anyway. Jason always seemed fair and honorable, so I find it hard to believe he'd make the kind of deal Fogel accused him of. Still, I found the parallel with the CFCL pretty interesting.

David

[redhots]

I haven't bought it yet but it's the next book I will be purchasing.........even if I don't have the experience of previous CFCL seasons with Jason (and come to think of it......if he's still in the CFCL then I'm still waiting) I'm looking forward to reading it.

As far as speed goes.....I'm interested to see the pace of the CFCL draft.....the NL only league I participated in Dallas the year before moving back here to Chicagoland was with several people who represent a fantasy baseball website in various expert leagues. It was my first "live" auction and the pace was quick. I personally liked it........it was a re-draft league in it's first year so that was a different dynamic. They developed it to partner with their long running AL only league and made it a re-draft league in order to give everyone a shot at all the players each year.......as long as you're willing to pay for them.

I'm curious to see the pace of the CFCL draft. Is the time you have virtually unlimited as you decide whether to stay in the bidding, throw out the next player, etc.? Is their any unwritten rules or guidelines I should be aware of?

Counting down the days.

Bob

[kenndoza (archived)]

I like faster drafts because I think it gives an advantage to people who are more organized/prepared on draft day, but I also agree with those who say "you look forward to this day all year...why would you want to speed it up?"

I bought Fantasyland a few weeks ago the same day I bought "Now I Can Die in Peace" (Bill Simmons of ESPN.com's memoir of the 2004 Red Sox). I decided to read "Peace" first, but I should finish it soon and start on Fantasyland...if I can be torn away from the NCAA tourney and preparing for the CFCL.

[Copperfields]

redhots said:

II'm curious to see the pace of the CFCL draft. Is the time you have virtually unlimited as you decide whether to stay in the bidding, throw out the next player, etc.? Is their any unwritten rules or guidelines I should be aware of?

Bob,
The time you have for all aspects of the Draft (bidding, nominating, selecting in the Reserve rounds) is unlimited in the sense that we don't use a clock. We definitely allow people time to think things over (especially since once you "pass" during the bidding, you're out for good).

That said, we do try (by general consensus and consideration) not to let things bog down too much. Especially in the area of nominating players. Unless you were one of the last 2-3 teams left bidding on the prior player, there's really not any reason you shouldn't be ready to nominate a player when it's your turn.

We do have a set of "courtesy guidelines" that we publish each year around Draft time:
www.geocities.com/copgeek/draftspeed.html

David

[redhots]

Thanks David......That helps clarify things.

Can't wait for April 2nd!!!!

Bob

[kenndoza (archived)]

I finished FANTASYLAND yesterday, and agree with Dave on its points. It's an easy and fun read, and I was amazed at how many people in it I knew personally (having worked for STATS, Rotowire, and Baseball Information Solutions will do that I guess). I couldn't help but feel a little jealous that I wasn't in there.

I'd recommend the book to anyone in this league, and we'd surely all see ourselves (figuratively, not literally) all over this book. What struck me most were all the times I cringed at the author's faulty logic and unfounded optimism (bordering on cockiness). He made all of the rookie mistakes we made when we first came into the roto world, but I'll admit that he did pretty well against those so-called experts.

Which leads me to my next point. What really makes these guys experts? Yes, they all have their own websites, books, and even strategies. They surely "know" more about fantasy baseball and the major leaguer players than most (if not all) of us, but does that necessarily make them better than us?

Jason Grey for example (side note: Jason, if you're reading, I mean no offense...I'm just trying to make some points). Jason came into the CFCL as a true "expert", and his website, experience and inside knowledge should have made him a shoo-in in a league full of amateurs like us. But he never completely showed the success he had in the Tout Wars. Why not?

In Fantasyland, the author gushes at the greatness that is Jason. Even when Jason was in last place during that season, he continued to talk about him in nothing-but-positive terms (after all, he was coming off back-to-back victories, if I recall).

So why could Jason dominate Ron Shandler and the other touts but not beat the likes of us (well, he beat me both years I've been in the league)?

I'm honestly looking for real answers, as I want to understand this game better. Maybe all of the experts are so predictable (because they wear their projections/theories on their sleeves) that Jason is good at exploiting that, but when it comes to regular guys like us, he can't count on us to behave a certain way. Competitive-wise, I'd put the CFCL up against any league, but let's face it...we're all guys with day jobs that have nothing to do with running our own fantasy sports empires.

Sorry if I'm rambling, but I really want to know.

[kenndoza (archived)]

Apparently part of my post replaced a word with "thingy". Pretty funny. The word I was looking for is a euphemism for both a chicken and the male organ. I guess it was edited out. Weird.

[Nick's Picts (archived)]

kenndoza said:

Apparently part of my post replaced a word with "thingy". Pretty funny. The word I was looking for is a euphemism for both a chicken and the male organ. I guess it was edited out. Weird.

It's kind of fun seeing what gets dinged and what does not. Of course there are ways around a c0cky admin bot.

[Nick's Picts (archived)]

As for why Jason did not sweep the CFCL, I think there were a number of factors he was up against that do not hold true for many of the "expert" leagues. The fact that we can protect ~65% of our roster year in and year out means much of the league talent is locked up in any given draft. A lot of the gamesmanship that goes on in the expert leagues is facilitated by the fact that they are redraft leagues. It's waaayyy easier to go studs and scabs when the full contingent of studs are available.

Related, the deep ultra reserve rosters we play with also serve to lock up talent going into the draft. For every Pujols who makes their CFCL debut via the draft-eligible pool, there is an arseful of splashy minor leaguers who have been stashed on someone's roster for the last three years. Consider that one of Jason's prime strategies is locking up cheap, young pitchers with high K rates regardless of their role or ratios. If they're sitting on a reserve roster, it's hard to sweep them up during the end game.

Finally, while the CFCL is the end-all be-all of our fantasy existence, it was one of many leagues for Jason. Also, I think there are several owners in the CFCL who would more than acquit themselves in any given expert league. David is probably the best wheeler-dealer I've ever seen and his ability to "read the tea leaves" is uncanny. Of course, the prep he puts in is key. Steve's goofy, no-planning exterior belies the cold heart of a shrewd banker who snipes opportunities. Grage is a minor league encyclopedia. blah blah blah.

Anywho, at some level I'm just putting words into Jason's mouth but I feel uniquely qualified after taking three years of his snack food battering.

[MGrage]

Aloha,

That stupid filter has alternately amused and pissed me off for a long time Kenn. Most of the times I'm able to catch the darned thing when I preview my post. Anyways, I think the two biggest reasons why Jason didn't win in his brief but successful tour through our league was luck and our unique league setup.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't TOUT wars non-keeper leagues? I think it's probably easier to put a winning team together starting from scratch each year. In any given year in the CFCL, there's a significant portion of stats tied up in LTCs. I also think that luck plays a big part in winning and losing any championship. Mahalo

Matt

PS. Don't listen to what Dave said in his trade post. He likes it when I ask for Miguel Cabrera in almost every trade discussion we have. Right Dave?

[stones]

nickpicts said:

Also, I think there are several owners in the CFCL who would more than acquit themselves in any given expert league. David is probably the best wheeler-dealer I've ever seen and his ability to "read the tea leaves" is uncanny. Of course, the prep he puts in is key. Steve's goofy, no-planning exterior belies the cold heart of a shrewd banker who snipes opportunities. Grage is a minor league encyclopedia.

Nick, Nick, Nick,

Where do I begin yet again. First, goofy maybe, but it really isn't an act. I am really always unprepared.

Second, I am flattered to be included in your example especially in this august group. Because I most surely do not feel like anything close to an "Expert" and nor do I merit to be sandwiched between those two other guys you mentioned. By the way a sandwich with David, Matt and me in the middle would be a Meat Lovers special, right? (Matt, no need for the p3nis humor, I meant this in terms of our collective girth . OK what I really meant to say was you two remind me of two pieces of white bread and I am all meat!)

OK I lost my point here.

Lastly, I agree with Nick that this league is a pretty formidable group. Jason certainly raised the bar by a bit, it was pretty high to begin with. I almost quit the past two seasons (OK no one can say "why didn't you!") because of my Bank project. But I just enjoy this too much. If I ever wanted to get back in, I am sure I couldn't pass the muster that we put Kenn, Teddy and Bob through.

By the why, welcome again, Bob. You're going to love this group.

I for one will miss Jason. He was fun to watch at the draft. It was also fun to watch him squirm when the auction bogged down occasionally. Now that's entertainment!

Any way, I hope Jason stays in touch. He was fun to have around. I learned a little from him. I am not sure I would raise him to God status though.

[Nick's Picts (archived)]

stones said:

Where do I begin yet again. First, goofy maybe, but it really isn't an act. I am really always unprepared.

Sorry, Steve. You blew your cover two seasons ago.

Also, I didn't mean to stop with just you, DM, and Grage--I just got bored with the exercise. Although the idea of a Mahlan, Ols0n, Grage meat sandwich has more than put me off my feed for the foreseeable future. I don't know whether to thank or curse you for that.

stones said:

p3nis humor

<SamuelLJackson>Whoa! Look at Steve gettin' all l33t!</SamuelLJackson>

stones said:

If I ever wanted to get back in, I am sure I couldn't pass the muster that we put Kenn, Teddy and Bob through.

I've thought the same thing. Both in terms of resigning because of grad school and that if I did there's no way in h3ll I'd be re-admitted.

So, yeah, it's a pretty good group of guys and I like this so much I'm willing to make the 4.5 hour drive just to play every year. Of course, with the working being done on I-294 this year's drive looks more like 5.5 hours unless I want to brave the Bishop Ford, Ryan *and* the Eisenhauer before tackling surface roads from Lombard on in.

Speaking of, I'll be rolling into the metro area sometime Saturday afternoon/evening. Anyone up for a pre-draft watering/feeding event at a local grubbery? Your choice and I'll get the first round.

[MGrage]

stones said:

nickpicts said:

Also, I think there are several owners in the CFCL who would more than acquit themselves in any given expert league. David is probably the best wheeler-dealer I've ever seen and his ability to "read the tea leaves" is uncanny. Of course, the prep he puts in is key. Steve's goofy, no-planning exterior belies the cold heart of a shrewd banker who snipes opportunities. Grage is a minor league encyclopedia.

Second, I am flattered to be included in your example especially in this august group. Because I most surely do not feel like anything close to an "Expert" and nor do I merit to be sandwiched between those two other guys you mentioned. By the way a sandwich with David, Matt and me in the middle would be a Meat Lovers special, right? (Matt, no need for the p3nis humor, I meant this in terms of our collective girth . OK what I really meant to say was you two remind me of two pieces of white bread and I am all meat!)

*spew* I like my meat less marbled, thank you very much. Though for all I know, you're stringy and tough. BTW, unless Dave has reverted to his former food loving ways, I doubt that he could join us in re-creating the Fat Boys Steve. We'll just have to put a fat suit on Nick I guess.

stones said:

I for one will miss Jason. He was fun to watch at the draft. It was also fun to watch him squirm when the auction bogged down occasionally. Now that's entertainment!

Any way, I hope Jason stays in touch. He was fun to have around. I learned a little from him. I am not sure I would raise him to God status though.

Yeah, I'll miss him too. Though I hated all the times he'd one up my bid on a player I really wanted. I should see him this winter when I go to Shandler's Arizona First Pitch thingy. He's always been fun to hang out with and lose money to. Mahalo

Matt


PS. Thanks for the compliment Nick. I always loved those Encyclopedia Brown books when I was growing up. Yes, Steve, I did grow up. You should have seen me in my pre-pubescent glory.

[Copperfields]

I've got some thoughts on the topic of Jason's performance in the CFCL, but don't have time to cover that at the moment. I did want to respond to this, though:

nickpicts said:

Speaking of, I'll be rolling into the metro area sometime Saturday afternoon/evening. Anyone up for a pre-draft watering/feeding event at a local grubbery? Your choice and I'll get the first round.

The pre-Draft Saturday is usually pretty hellacious for me with preparing the administrative stuff for D-Day, but I'm thinking I could definitely be persuaded to break away for grubbing. Let's keep this in mind as a definite possibility. Where are you staying, Nick?

Anyone else interested?

[Nick's Picts (archived)]

mgrage said:

We'll just have to put a fat suit on Nick I guess.

Way ahead of you there, Matt. The regular feeding schedule of the post-graduation lifestyle has rounded my frame sufficiently. While the avatar presently in use may *look* like a certain Captain K., it's really me on a good hair day.

mgrage said:

I always loved those Encyclopedia Brown books when I was growing up.

Encyclopedia Brown was the shnizzle, yo! When SWMBO and I were last visiting her parents' farm we found her cache of E.B. books and brought them back to Indie with us. Great stuff.