EC DISCUSSION: Winter Waivers and AL Players

[Copperfields]

I think we're all familiar with this one. Should teams be able to release an AL player when they claim someone on Winter Waivers? If they're getting rid of an AL player in order to make a claim, should that ALer go through Winter Waivers? Or should the team be required to waive a non-AL person if they claim someone?

LINK TO ORIGINAL DISCUSSION
cfcl.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=ec&action=display&thread=1137195669

[Nick's Picts (archived)]

My position remains unchanged.

• teams can release AL players when making WW claims
• the ALer should go through WW like any other player
• standard rules about keeping an ALer on one's roster apply

[MGrage]

My position remains unchanged as well.

1) Teams can waive AL players when cutting down to 23
2) Teams cannot waive an AL player when claiming one
3) No manditory date where one has to waive an AL player

[Demreb]

If we decide that AL players can be waived and claimed then I say you can waive an AL player to acquire someone on WW. If the AL players need to be released, then the CFCL team claiming a WW player MUST WAIVE an eligible player. They might also release an AL bound player, but that cannot be used as the roster opening for the WW claim.

[Nick's Picts (archived)]

mgrage said:

1) Teams can waive AL players when cutting down to 23
2) Teams cannot waive an AL player when claiming one

I just can't see anything that necessarily differentiates between cases 1 & 2. If some argument other than an ad hoc distinction for purposes of increasing roster churn during WW can be made, I could be pursuaded to change my mind.

[MGrage]

nickpicts said:

mgrage said:

1) Teams can waive AL players when cutting down to 23
2) Teams cannot waive an AL player when claiming one

I just can't see anything that necessarily differentiates between cases 1 & 2. If some argument other than an ad hoc distinction for purposes of increasing roster churn during WW can be made, I could be pursuaded to change my mind.

Well, in case 1), you're not picking up a player from another team's roster. In case 2), you are. I think that's where the biggest inequity comes from.

[Nick's Picts (archived)]

By the same token, in case (1) you are waiving a player who is legitmately on your roster and in case (2) you are waiving a player who is legitimately on your roster.

Of course, this comes from my understanding that when this topic is ultimately addressed in the rules, the ALers will be available for claiming instead of being released outright. If we continue to release ALers outright then I think you have a valid point.

Tangentially: it's interesting how the change to allow teams to keep ALers on their rosters, ostensibly to count stats during a season in which they are traded, continues to reverberate in unintended ways.

[Copperfields]

I stayed out of this one for a while in hopes that some new voices would jump in (on either side of the debate), but it looks like we're going to be limited to the four who took part in the original discussion.

I'll concede the point that it's probably not within the spirit of Winter Waivers to release an AL player in order to acquire someone on waivers.

However, I stick firm to my position that there is no significant difference between the players cut in order to get down to 23 players and those cut when claiming someone on Winter Waivers. Yes, in the latter case you may be acquiring a player you might otherwise not have had, but in the former case you're keeping someone you might otherwise have cut. Whether that player taking the place of the AL player being cut comes from your own intended cast-offs or from another team's is immaterial.

I'd also disagree with the assertion (not made in this thread, but the earlier one), that allowing AL players to go through Winter Waivers would not be providing anything of value to the waiver pool. True, there may be little chance that any of those AL players would come back to the NL by Opening Day, and we've yet to have an ALer kept on Roster Freeze Day. However, formerly-owned AL players do have value in our league, albeit slight. Chances are they'd cruise through WW without a nibble. However, there's as much value in them as 25% of the fodder that gets cast off during WW.

You can see where this is going -- I tend to agree with Nick's approach to things (though I still don't like the inconsistency of allowing AL players on waivers during the Winter but outlwaing it during the season). Before finalizing a recommendation, though, here's a possible modification to it that might at least make it more pallatable:

1) teams can waive AL players when cutting down to 23 (this would actually help me out, as there wouldn't be any of the "ooops, this guys shouldn't be on the waivers list because he's in the AL" business that we had this year)

2) those AL players can be claimed, with all the usual off-season and roster protection rules for AL players applying

3) AL players can be waived in subsequent rounds in order to pick up a player on Winter Waivers. However if you're waiving an AL player in order to make a claim, you go to the bottom of the waiver claim order in each go-around until you've claimed a player and waived the ALer. If you have additional players on your target claim list after the ALer's been waived, you'd return to your regular place in the priority list.

#3 should help ensure the following:

- teams may be less willing to list the AL player first on their list of players to be waived because it would make it less likely they acquire their target claims. It'd no longer be an "automatic" freebie

- if we do make it around to the AL player being waived, it would pretty much be in exchange for a player that everyone else took a pass on

So, basically, we would be allowing teams to replace a player who went to the AL, but only with the very dregs of the waiver pool.

Does that help at all?

[Copperfields]

copperfields said:

3) AL players can be waived in subsequent rounds in order to pick up a player on Winter Waivers. However if you're waiving an AL player in order to make a claim, you go to the bottom of the waiver claim order in each go-around until you've claimed a player and waived the ALer. If you have additional players on your target claim list after the ALer's been waived, you'd return to your regular place in the priority list.

On re-reading this, I don't think it gets my objective across. Basically, what I'm suggesting is that if you submit a list of Winter Waiver claims and include an AL player on your list of players to be waived, when you get to the point in your list where you'd be waiving the AL player with your next successful claim, you cannot claim a player that any other owner wants (unless another owner is also waiving an AL player - in which place we'd go back to normal priority). If you still have subsequent claim targets remaining after you waive the AL player, you'd then fall back into the normal claim order. Does that make sense?

[Copperfields]

EC Recommendation:When claiming a player on Winter Waivers, you must waive a player off your 23-man winter roster. This can include players who are currently in the American League. If you waive an AL player and he is claimed in the following round of Winter Waivers, he will be subject to all the normal rules regarding AL players in terms of protection on the roster on Roster Freeze Day, etc. This applies to Winter Waivers only -- during the season, AL players should continue to be released outright rather than go through waivers.